Linda Denley is a sport karate legend. For seven years, she never lost a match. She attended about 40 tournaments a year during her unbeaten streak, winning so often that other martial artists wondered if she was human. In May 1980, at the Diamond Nationals in Minneapolis, Joanna Needham, a highly regarded fighter, did what was thought to be impossible — she beat Denley, ending her aura of invincibility. Instead of retiring, complaining or falling apart, Denley accepted her loss and started another winning streak. Though she has proven to be a little more fallible in recent years, Denley remains a major stumbling block for women fighters. After barely losing her national title to rival Arlene Limas in 1982, Denley, an ardent competitor, came back strong in ’83, convincingly winning back her crown. The defending champion from Houston has an aggressive fighting style, which has propelled her to receive numerous awards. In 1980, she was elected to the BLACK BELT Hall of Fame as Competitor of the Year. She received her black belt in tang soo do in 1975. Her competitive instincts, which worked so well in track, volleyball and basketball in school, proved highly successful on the national circuit, too. Denier has won every major tournament championship, including an amazing ten consecutive grand titles at the Battle of Atlanta. In this interview, Denier talks about her dominance, her rivalry with’ Limas, tournament judging, the pressure to win, her dislike of the national rules, the best up-and-coming woman fighters, what would make her quit competing, and much more.
FIGHTING STARS: Why have you been such a dominant fighter?
LINDA DENLEY: That’s a hard question. To tell you the truth, I really don’t know: I assume I’ve been working out like everyone else. But I really don’t know what everyone else is doing. I’ve been competing for such a long time. You have to learn how to play the game. In point karate, I’ve learned to always take the fight to my opponent. I’m not a defensive fighter I’m not one to wait around and let my opponent score first. I go in there and take control of the match, if possible. I like to do the impossible, too. I like to try to take control when it doesn’t look like I can.
FS: Other fighters don’t fight like you?
LD: Well, I think a4ot of times other fighters beat themselves before they get into the ring. They fight the name, instead of the opponent. I don’t know what other fighters try to do, or what they think.
FS: Shouldn’t other fighters be intimidated by you?
LD: No. Why?
FS: Aren’t most of your opponents beaten before they get into the ring with you?
LD: I don’t believe that. I would rather fight somebody who is good, not somebody no good. I’ve never fought anybody who wasn’t any good.
FS: Haven’t you met a lot of easy opponents?
LD: Not really. Everyone is good.
FS: Do you ever get bored by winning too easily?
LD: Never. In 11 years, I’ve never been bored with winning. What I did do was cut back on my working out. That was a handicap for me. I’ve never underestimated anyone. Every match was serious. It will catch up with you. Like it has now for me. I’m back into my daily workout routine.
FS: Your record at the Battle of Atlanta is amazing. You really like that tournament?
LD: I’ve won it ten times in a row. I won it when they held the tournament twice a year a few years ago. I love it. That’s the best tournament that I’ve ever been to. I’ll continue to go as long as they have it. I like the atmosphere, the people, the hospitality, the promoter. I just like the tournament, period.
FS: Do you feel pressure to win?
LD: Losing isn’t on my mind. I feel great when I go to the Battle (of Atlanta). I don’t feel as good about California. I don’t expect to lose in California, but I don’t expect too much.
FS: Why do you dislike California?
LD: I don’t feel as confident. I don’t like the hospitality. The promoters and I don’t have good contact. I don’t think they like that number-one fighter. I don’t think I’ve done anything to them. If I have, I’m terribly sorry about it.
FS: Why did you begin fighting on the national circuit in 1974?
LD: When I first started fighting, karate was a natural thing for me. I heard a lot about Texas having the best fighters. I didn’t believe it until I convinced myself. Winning all of the tournaments still didn’t totally convince me. I just wanted to travel. I love to travel, then go to karate tournaments.
FS: You never lost the first five years you were on the circuit?
LD: Actually, it was seven years. The first two years they didn’t rate woman fighters. It’s no big deal, seven years or five years. It means a lot to me, but really it’s not that big of a deal.
FS: How many matches did you win during that sewn-year period?
LD: Well, I have a list of every match from my start until 1982. I counted them one time, but I don’t remember now. I competed in between 35 and 40 tournaments a year. It was all fun. Now there’s more pressure. FS: You feel pressure now?
LD: Now, you have to do certain things. There was never such a thing as A-rated tournaments, or you had to win certain tournaments. All that mattered was who you beat. I don’t want to go to tournaments because it’s twice a year a few years ago. I love it. That’s the best tournament that I’ve ever been to. I’ll continue to go as long as they have it. I like the atmosphere, the people, the hospitality, the promoter. I just like the tournament, period.
FS: Do you feel pressure to win?
LD: Losing isn’t on my mind. I feel great when I go to the Battle (of Atlanta). I don’t feel as good about California. I don’t expect to lose in California, but I don’t expect too much.
F’S: Why do you dislike California?
LD: I don’t feel as confident. I don’t like the hospitality. The promoters and I don’t have good contact. I don’t think they like that number-one fighter. I don’t think I’ve done any-thing to them. If I have, I’m terribly sorry about it.
FS: Why did you begin fighting on the national circuit in 1974?
LD: When I first started fighting, karate was a natural thing for me. I heard a lot about Texas having the best fighters. I didn’t believe it until I convinced myself. Winning all of the tournaments still didn’t totally convince me. I just wanted to travel. I love to travel, then go to karate tournaments.
FS: You never lost the first five years you were on the circuit?
LD: Actually, it was seven years. The first two years they didn’t rate woman fighters. It’s no big deal, seven years or five years. It means a lot to me, but really it’s not that big of a deal.
FS: How many matches did you win during that seven-year period?
LD: Well, I have a list of every match from my start until 1982. I counted them one time, but I don’t remember now. I competed in between 35 and 40 tournaments a year. It was all fun. Now there’s more pressure.
FS: You feel pressure now?
LD: Now, you have to do certain things. There was never such a thing as A-rated tournaments, or you had to win certain tournaments. All that mattered was who you beat. I don’t want to go to tournaments because it’s required by the ratings. I want to go and enjoy my karate, not because I have to go. There are too many requirements to be top rated. I’ve seen competitors almost dying because of an injury, but they compete anyway because they need the points. I don’t like that. I don’t want to be negative, but I don’t like that type of pressure. You have to spend a lot of money to go to tournaments.
FS: It’s very expensive to compete on the national circuit. How do you afford it?
LD: I don’t know. I’ve been an insurance rep for about five years now. I’ve never spent a penny of my job money to go on a vacation on weekend at a karate tournament. don’t have a sponsor. When I first started, my parents helped support me. Of course, I sponsor a tournament here in Houston (the Space City Open), that’s a big help. The prize money, my tournament and teaching classes help pay my way. I would never go into my job income to go to a karate tournament.
FS: How did it feel when you first lost in 1980?
LD: I wasn’t sure how to handle it. I drilled myself each time I went to a tournament to be prepared in case I lost. I didn’t want to react like a lot of people do. I think it’s tacky for someone to complain about their losses. It’s always the judges’ fault.
FS: Why do very few martial artists admit defeat?
LD: You always hear people say that they got cheated. It’s their pride, I think. You’ll never hear me complain like that. Well, actually, one time I felt like I was cheated. Talk will not change anything. Why go to the trouble to make yourself look bad?
FS: Let’s talk about your rival, Arlene Limas? Isn’t she your major competition on the tournament trail?
LD: Everybody is competition.
FS: It seems like 99 percent of the time, it comes down to Arlene Limas versus Linda Denley for the women’s grand championship. How do you feel about that?
LD: It’s exciting. Of course, it’s exciting to fight every and anybody. There are fighters more rowdy or more spunky than she (Limas) is. But the people look forward to seeing us fight. It doesn’t bother me one way or another. I don’t get any more nervous fighting her than anybody else. Of course, I still do get nervous.
FS: Have you changed your fighting style against her over the years?
LD: No. But I need to. I’ve always been the one to take the match to her. I have yet to change that, can’t change it overnight. I think about it, but I still can’t do it. Being aggressive is both positive and negative against her. So I’m not certain I have to change.
FS: How does Limas fight you?
LD: She just fights back. Like I said before, I don’t think she gives me the toughest matches. Even though she has won a lot, but, uh, she does have extra-long legs, which she doesn’t always hit me with.
FS: When you beat Arlene, why do you usually win?
LD: (I’m) faster than her.
FS: When Arlene beats you, why does she win?
LD: I really don’t know. I don’t know what she beats me with. It’s never the same techniques. If it were, I would have to wake up. It isn’t something I can’t stop.
FS: How do you feel about tournament judges?
LD: It depends what state the tournament is in.
FS: Let’s start with your home state, Texas?
LD: I don’t like to judge my friends. I like to judge people from my hometown because I know what they’re capable of doing. The problem is that you anticipate what is going to happen. The technique might be thrown but it might not quite land. You still give them a point because it could of landed or they are great. I don’t judge my friends because I’m harder on them.
FS: Do you try to change a judge if you don’t trust him?
LD: I usually don’t say anything. I just let it go. It’s hard sometimes. I figure that if it’s meant to be, it will happen. I’m a very sensitive person. If I change the judges I might still lose. I try to compromise with the people. We fight enough in the ring, why fight out of the ring?
FS: Do fighters hit harder now than a few years ago? LD: I don’t know, I never get hit (laughter). No. I rarely get hit hard. But at the Battle of Atlanta this year, I got hit by Rhonda Alexander harder than I’ve ever been hit in the history of karate. She took all of the wind out of me. There was nothing for me to do but just sit on the floor. But it depends on who you are fighting. Everyone hits a little different.
FS: Do fighters hit harder in Texas?
LD: 1 think you can hit as hard as you want here in Texas, as long as it is to the body. The same with Chicago. In Atlanta you can hit as hard as you want. But some tournaments will take points away for too much contact.
FS: Do you ever worry about injuries?
LD: No.
FS: Have you ever been injured?
LD: I have a bad knee. I have loose joints. That comes from track, volleyball and everything. I just don’t want any cuts on my face. A bruise is alright. But don’t cut my face, please. If you think about getting hurt, it will happen.
FS: How is your training schedule?
LD: Very raggedy. I’m going back to my old schedule, back to basics. I’m going back to the things I used to do when I was winning regularly. If I did the type of workout that I did five years ago, I don’t believe anybody could touch me. I got away from it because of time, age and I can’t do as much as I used to do.
FS: Do you have a hard time getting motivated?
LD: More now than before. But I never got bored when I was winning. I’m not really bored now. I guess I just find other things to do now. Karate is really getting confused and complicated. It’s very hard to relax and enjoy yourself. There are so many different rules, always changing. Then they find something not in the rules, so they put 15 things in the rules to cover that. It gets so complicated that I get a headache. It is very uneasy for the competitors. I like to relax when I get into the ring. Now I have to worry about what is going to be allowed and what will not be allowed. That’s very bad. You can’t perform well like that.
FS: Was there too much contact in your fight with Limas at the U.S. Open in 1983?
LD: Of course, I think they let us hit to an extreme. Then the center referee said, “OK, Linda, you hit hard one time too much.” I hit to the body and all four flags from the judges went up, giving me the point, but the referee overruled. “I’m going to give her (Limas) a contact point,” he said. How do you explain him overruling all four flags? Now we continue fighting, but I have it in the back of my head, “What if I do that again.” That’s too much pressure. I used to say, I could fight under any circumstances or rules. Well, not anymore, can’t do it.
FS: Can fighting remain fun?
LD: It takes some of the fun out of it. Remember, it limits your techniques, too. If some A-rated tournaments allow groin shots, why not have all of them allow groin shots. The rules should be consistent. Everybody should know them. If I ever stop fighting, it will be because I can’t keep up with the rules. Not because I don’t like karate; I love karate. But, of course, karate is not first in my lire. A lot of people are retiring because the rules are getting harder, harder and harder.
FS: When you’re not participating in karate, what do you like to do?
LD: Well, if I’m not doing karate, I’m in church. You know, I sing in the choir in my church. I like to go to the movies, rollerskate, bowl, used to dance, try to spend more time with my seven-year-old niece, like to travel.
FS: Do you consider yourself a celebrity on the karate circuit?
LD: Sometimes I feel like it. It can be uneasy at times. I do enjoy it, but at times you have to sacrifice for the people. I’m the type of person that doesn’t like to be bothered when I’m getting ready to perform. People ask me how often I train, how do I get my kicks the way they are and, uh, how many hours do I train?
FS: Do you do any unusual training?
LD: I really don’t know. I do run. But I’m not sure if other people run, too. When I’m serious, I run three miles a day, except on Friday, Saturday and Sunday. I work out two or three hours a day except for Friday, Saturday and Sunday. It depends on how important the next tournament is. I may do some extra working out. I do speed drills and very little bag work. Of course, I do a lot of stretching and a lot of concentration.
FS: Do you have a game plan before each tournament?
LD: If the tournament is in California, I don’t expect anything, can’t be hurt then. If you expect to do well because you trained well, you’ll be hurt if you lose. Your mind controls your body. But I don’t go out there to not do well. I do my best every time. Sometimes your best is not enough for the people. A lot of people thought I would be destroyed when I lost that first match. Some people actually thought I would retire when I lost. I lost one match. I believe I was entitled to lose. I know many people who lost and could never get it back together. They just couldn’t accept the fact that they lost.
FS: What do you get out of tournament competition?
LD: I do it because sometimes I have the talent. I like seeing people compete. I like to watch certain people more than I like to compete myself. I like to watch good kickers, good techniques and fair play. I like to talk to friends about stuff outside of karate. We know about your karate, but what about your personal life?
FS: What don’t you like about tournaments?
LD: I don’t like it when I’m mentally and physically exhausted. Doesn’t matter if I fight 20 or two matches, I’m tired when I come back home. I don’t like to sit and ride on these boring planes. I don’t like to wait. I’m very impatient to fight. I like to get it over with. Usually my patience is long, but not for fighting.
FS: Have you ever thought about doing forms?
LD: Yes (laughter). It’s in the making. I’m embarrassed about it though. I’m very sensitive. If I go out there and blow it, that will be the end of my forms career. I know I’m no match for nobody, but I don’t care. I was forced to do forms when I was coming up. You had to do it. When I started, they didn’t have separate divisions for women. It was white (belt) through black. Yes, men and women were all together. Finally, they separated the men and the women. Later, they divided the women up. Since I was forced to do forms, I decided when I didn’t have to do them, I would quit.
FS: Do you worry about what other people think?
LD: I don’t fight for other people. I fight for Linda Denley. People always talk. I expect it, I’m not shocked. I’m not ashamed of anything I’ve done.
FS: How good is Linda Denley?
LD: I’ve never considered myself great. I might throw a good technique once in a while, but no one individual can tell me I’m great. I try to perform to the best of my ability. Now I’m not a bad fighter, but, of course, I’m not as good as I’d like to be.
FS: How would you fight Linda Denley?
LD: Do you really think I’m going to tell you that (laughter). You have got to be kidding me. I can’t see any weaknesses on film. Fight hard, smart and don’t be too anxious. I can’t beat myself with my own medicine, though.
FS: Linda Denley will be attacking. How can I not be anxious?
LD: I would hit and run.
FS: Don’t most fighters do that?
LD: It doesn’t seem that way to me. Maybe they should get on the track and run more. I wouldn’t take any licks. I’ve been told I do hit a lot harder than a lot of women. I wouldn’t even take any licks when I block. You can’t avoid everything. You can’t be untouched. I’m not a headhunter. I only worry about my face. There are a lot of people on the circuit that are headhunters. Again, I can’t tell people how to fight.
FS: What would you like to change about the tournament scene?
LD: I would drop the A-, B-, C- and now the double A-tournament stuff. Now, you can buy a rating. I really don’t know, it has become such a mess.
FS: How would we determine the top competitors?
LD: Well, how did they do it before? They didn’t have ratings when Keith Vitali was number one his first year. How was Howard Jackson made number one a while back? It went by how many wins and who you beat. It has become a joke in many ways. In five years, there are going to be a bunch of crazy people going to tournaments.
FS: You wouldn’t still compete if things got out of hand?
LD: It is very hard to say. I would go to the tournaments I want to go to. I would only travel to the tournaments I like to go to, not just for the ratings points.
FS: Why don’t you do that now?
LD: I’m going, but not really because of the ratings. I go because I like it. I like to travel, train and talk to the people. It has become mandatory that we do so many things in order to win and get rated. Like I said before, I will go by the rules for as long as I can take it. But if things continue to change, I’m going to throw my hands up and just go whenever I want.
FS: You went to the PKA Nationals in 1983?
LD: Yes.
FS: Have you been paid yet?
LD: Are you serious? I didn’t expect one dime from that tournament. It wasn’t a disappointment.
FS: Do you expect most tournament promoters to pay?
LD: Uh, yes.
FS: Then what made the PKA Nationals different?
LD: There wasn’t any information sent to my house. A lot of states didn’t get any brochures. Hardly
anybody knew about the tournament. The guy (promoter Harry Sommer), when I talked to him on the phone, said, “I’m giving out this much money ($11,670).” Just too many pieces didn’t add up. I knew he wasn’t going to give away all of that money.
FS: You also went to the Atlantic City tournament?
LD: Yes. That promoter (John Brown) didn’t know from A to Z about running a tournament. He was expecting to pull all of the money in from the tournament. This guy meant well, but I think he just panicked in the end. I just took it as a vacation. I didn’t even take my karate gi with me, just to show the people that I knew it was unreal. But I would have bought a gi if the tournament went off (laughter).
FS: How much longer are you going to compete?
LD: As long as the good Lord allows me to.
FS: What has been your award in karate?
LD: Winning the Hall of Fame in 1980. I never expected it. I had never even heard of it, until I made it.
FS: Do you have any advice for anyone starting to compete in tournaments?
LD: It’s a long hard road. You have to really pay your dues.
FS: Name some of the best up-and-coming woman fighters?
LD: Lori Lantrip; yes, indeed, she must be the hardest person for me to hit. She’s got great lateral movement. She may not be a real strong hitter, but she knows how to move. I thought Stacey (Duke) would be a good fighter. Now I’m not sure, she’s hot and cold. She’s got great technique, but sometimes I see fear in her eyes. Sometimes she’s not as aggressive as she should be. Considering the ability that she has, she should be better than she is. I’ve never fought Cheryl Nance, but she appears to be a good aggressive fighter. Lois Jones, who I fight once or twice every year, is a good fighter. She’s not a consistent fighter, though.
FS: Name some of the top men fighters?
LD: Tony Young, love to watch him fight, the guy is incredible. Alvin Prouder is good. I like to see Stuart Quan fight. Keith Hirabayashi, love to see him fight. I can’t think of others right now.
FS: Have you ever thought about fighting men?
LD: No. Never in a tournament. It would be disrespectful. I spar with men in the school, though. Men are quicker than women. You have to be on your toes. They throw harder techniques from all angles.
FS: Would you fight fullcontact karate?
LD: No. It is a lot of punishment. You have to get hit in fullcontact. You don’t have to get hit in point karate. Fullcontact is hard. That’s a man’s sport. Of course, karate is also. The stakes would have to be real, real high. Like in the millions of dollars. If the stakes are that high, I’ll let them swing at me and I’ll fall.
FS: Are the women better fighters than when you started?
LD: Yes. They’re not as sloppy as they used to be. They’ve become better technicians. I used to be able to sit back and pick them off. Many are more aggressive than they used to be.
FS: They’ve learned from you?
LD: You know, I often hear that.
This Interview was originally published inside Fighting Stars magazine October 1984. More information on Linda Denley.